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Serious lack of photos and illustrations in the article

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please do something about it, thanks.


Re-opening discussion

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@Tgeorgescu:, @CycoMa:, @Apaugasma: Now that things have boiled down a bit, I think it is worth re-opening the discussion about this page. I have not radically edited this page, because I first want to reach a consensus.

  • The only way to deny the development of Judah in the 10th century is by applying Israel Finkelstein's Low Chronology. But the Low Chronology is rejected by most scholars, who continue to use the Traditional Chronology or Amihai Mazar's Modified Conventional Chronology and still date those artifacts to the 10th century;
  • Archaeological discoveries in Jerusalem and Khirbet Qeiyafa have been certified by the Israel Antiquities Authority and, therefore, cannot be dismissed simply because Finkelstein thinks otherwise;
  • Appealing to Hitchens's razor is quite out of place. On Wikipedia, we follow the view of scholars, not epistemological razors.
  • That doesn't mean that the United Monarchy was a superpower as the Bible tells us. I am not a biblical literalist, I simply follow archaeology.

Therefore, I believe we should modify this page. Let the debate begin.--Karma1998 (talk) 15:13, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Query - what recent, reliable sources - if any - support the existence of Judah as a kingdom in any way similar to the "United Monarchy" of Hebrew scripture? Newimpartial (talk) 15:27, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Newimpartial: As I said already, I don't believe there was a United Monarchy like the one described in the Bible. What I mean is that there was a polity that extended from Dan to Beersheba: its existence is proved by the structures at Hazor, Megiddo and Gezer (which most scholars date to the 10th century BCE), by findings in Khirbet Qeiyafa (which the IAA dates to the 10th century BCE) and findings in Jerusalem, which are usually dated to the 10th century BCE.--Karma1998 (talk) 17:47, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is no smoking gun. If there were a smoking gun we would have the mainstream consensus vs. the denialist fringe. But that is not the case. Mainstream opinions remain divided because there is no conclusive evidence one way or the other. Nothing at Khirbet Qeiyafa shouts This belonged to David! So, the assumption that Khirbet Qeiyafa was a Davidic site is just guessiology, it is not based upon any real evidence. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:30, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Karma, what is the evidence that Hazor, Meggido and Gezer belonged to the same polity? Newimpartial (talk) 18:39, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well @Tgeorgescu:, I don't really understand what you mean by "smoking gun", AFAIK most scholars believe Qeiyafa to be Israelite. @Newimpartial:, the structures at Hazor, Megiddo and Gezer are basically identical and this is assumed to mean they were built by the same polity.--Karma1998 (talk) 18:43, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As they say, Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups. See e.g. https://www.asor.org/blog/2013/08/16/the-so-called-solomonic-city-gate-at-megiddo/ tgeorgescu (talk) 19:10, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, most scholars state this, so I guess we should consider their views, shouldn't we?--Karma1998 (talk) 19:13, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
According to WP:RS/AC most scholars should be WP:Verifiable verbatim in a reputable, relatively recent WP:RS. Israel Finkelstein; Neil Asher Silberman (3 April 2007). David and Solomon: In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the Roots of the Western Tradition. Simon and Schuster. p. 160. ISBN 978-0-7432-4363-6. The supposedly Solomonic gates date to different periods of time, in the ninth and eighth centuries bce, and strikingly similar city gates have been found outside the borders of the kingdom of Solomon, even according to a territorially maximalist view. Israel Finkelstein; Neil Asher Silberman (3 April 2007). David and Solomon: In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the Roots of the Western Tradition. Simon and Schuster. p. 279. ISBN 978-1-4165-5688-6. In addition, similar gates were found in much later periods and at clearly non-Israelite sites, among them Philistine Ashdod. On the importance of Ussishkin's and Finkelstein's views in regard to Solomonic gates: Lowell K. Handy (1 January 1997). The Age of Solomon: Scholarship at the Turn of the Millennium. BRILL. p. 10. ISBN 90-04-10476-3.
So now it is clear that appealing to the Solomonic gates is shoddy scholarship and the argument has been debunked (mismatch in time is at least plausible, while mismatch in space is a hard fact). That even without having to endorse the Low Chronology.
Knight confirms that the argument has been debunked in Douglas A. Knight (1 January 2011). Law, Power, and Justice in Ancient Israel. Westminster John Knox Press. p. 166. ISBN 978-0-664-22144-7. He also states that Megiddo had less than 500 permanent inhabitants at that time.
Lawrence E. Stager; Joseph A. Greene; Michael D. Coogan (17 July 2018). The Archaeology of Jordan and Beyond: Essays in Memory of James A. Sauer. BRILL. p. 271. ISBN 978-90-04-36980-1. Cities with six-chambered gates included Megiddo, Hazor, Gezer, Ashdod, Lachish, and Tel 'Ira.
Francesca Stavrakopoulou (24 October 2012). King Manasseh and Child Sacrifice: Biblical Distortions of Historical Realities. Walter de Gruyter. pp. 79–80. ISBN 978-3-11-089964-1. states that the supposed evidence for the United Monarchy is now (2012) disputed, and the bedrock of archaeological evidence supporting the united monarchy therefore does not appear as firm as previously thought.
This is not a level playing field: the Yadin-Dever camp needs certainty in order to win the dispute, while the Ussishkin-Finkelstein camp scores a victory just by relegating the Solomonic gates to doubt. If it remains to some extent uncertain that those gates are really Solomonic, Ussishkin and Finkelstein win by default. They don't even need to be proven right in order to win the dispute. So long as it is not patently manifest that Dever is right, he lost the dispute. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:41, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

tgeorgescu I’m just gonna throw this discussion here. [right here] even you admitted that the existence of the United Monarchy is a majority view.CycoMa (talk) 21:46, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also pay attention to the dates of your sources. [This book] was originally published in 2004 and the one you presented was a updated version in 2012.

Also I don’t understand the argument you are trying to present with [this book]. What does Megiddo, Israel have to do with anything? Nobody mentioned it.

Also I’m gonna throw out [this discussion]. In that discussion I mentioned a reliable said that only a minority of scholars think the United Monarchy was a small polity.CycoMa (talk) 21:54, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Again, that is by no means settled. Why? Because one needs a smoking gun in order to positively affirm the existence of the United Monarchy. If you claim that United Monarchy meant a loose confederation of tribes with no practical consequences for governing the land from Jerusalem to Shfela by a state, then OK, I will grant you the point that the United Monarchy did exist. But if you mean that there were a fully developed state, in the form of a kingdom, there is no evidence for that. So, you will count scholars in favor of the United Monarchy when they totally reject the existence of a fully developed state ruled by king David. E.g. Amihai Mazar affirmed in 2008 for Icarus Films that David's Jerusalem was a very little town, but a powerful little town in the political vacuum of the country. "Background on Scholars". icarusfilms.com. 20 July 2009. Archived from the original on 20 July 2009. Retrieved 18 July 2019.
About that book, do you think that Solomon built the gates at Megiddo, Hazor, Gezer, Ashdod, Lachish, and Tel 'Ira? I.e. was he doing corvee work for the Philistines or what?
Mazar at Video on YouTube. Transcript: it doesn't mean that he had a huge city around him the city was quite small but he probably gained a lot of political power and somehow succeeded to control the entire country in a time when there was a gap there was a kind of a vacuum political vacuum in this country there was no Egyptian Empire anymore the Canaanites were very poor and probably he took advantage of this situation. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:11, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
tgeorgeacu I remember you mentioned to me you weren’t a historian. And honestly I’m not a historian either but, I do have some knowledge on the topic of history in general. (Although not Israelite history)
Keep in mind the time United Monarchy formed. It formed during the Greek dark ages, the Greek dark ages was a time when there was no writing. Also the United Monarchy didn’t even last that long.CycoMa (talk) 22:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I am mentioning this is because the one United monarchy formed is a time where there are little written records. This is also the case from other civilizations around that time.CycoMa (talk) 22:27, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The common wisdom in the academia is that there is no state without writing. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:30, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I do research on and edit articles on Japanese history. Historians think Japan most likely formed around the 2nd or 4th century AD. However, there are no written records from ancient Japan around that time. Most of the written records on ancient around that time are from Chinese records.
Also I never said there aren’t any written records on anything relating to the United Monarchy. We have some written records on King David outside of the Bible. However, there aren’t many sources on him.
Little written records aren’t the same thing as no written records.CycoMa (talk) 23:09, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
CycoMa, the statement that the Greek dark ages was a time when there was no writing has to be one of the most preposterous (and ethnocentric) unsourced statements I have ever seen in a Talk page discussion. Congratulations. Newimpartial (talk) 23:10, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Newimpartial[This source] says this for this reason, we have no first-hand written documents of any kind for this period.CycoMa (talk) 23:23, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Newimpartial so does [this source] on page 64.CycoMa (talk) 23:26, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My main concern is not whether most scholars support the existence of the United Monarchy, but what do they mean by it? Do they mean a fully developed state or just a gang from Jerusalem who looted other towns? What do they mean by state? tgeorgescu (talk) 23:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a reason to think these sources are making claims beyond the Greek cultural sphere? It would be surprising if the Phoenecian colonies, for example, experienced the "Greek Dark Ages". Literal ethnocentrism. Newimpartial (talk) 23:30, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And it is quite possible that David was a chieftain of Hebron, not Jerusalem. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:42, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Newimpartial my point is that if Ancient Greeks at that time had contacted with ancient Israelites we would have zero records from Greeks confirming this.CycoMa (talk) 23:43, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Then why didn't you say so? Also please follow the WP:TPG and WP:LISTGAP. Thanks. Newimpartial (talk) 23:46, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry @Tgeorgescu:, but even you admit that most scholars argue in favour of a United Monarchy. Why do you want so much to defy the view of the majority of scholars? On Wikipedia we follow what most scholars believe, not what we think is correct because of our subjective ideas. Finkelstein and Stavrakopoulou May well be right, but their views are in the minority. We aren't historians here, we simply write what scholars think is right, not what we deem right. If the majority of scholars believe those structures to be Solomonic, then we should simply write it, without engaging in disputes with them.-Karma1998 (talk) 23:05, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Karma, where are the on-topic Reliable Sources that conclude that a single polity occupied the territory you described above? I don't recall you providing any. Newimpartial (talk) 23:10, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Text and History: Reassessing the Relationship between the Bible and Archaeological Findings: A Review Essay of Jennie Ebeling, J. Edward Wright, Mark Elliott, and Paul V. M. Flesher eds., The Old Testament in Archaeology and History (Waco: Baylor, 2017), chapter 13 by Baruch Halpern
  • Has archaeology Buried the Bible? (2020) by William G. Dever
  • Beyond the Texts (2018) by William G. Dever
  • Routledge Encyclopedia of Ancient Mediterranean Religions (2015) by Eric Orlin, quote: "the majority of scholars accept the existence of a polity ruled by David and Solomon, albeit on a more modest scale than described in the Bible".--Karma1998 (talk) 23:18, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But any way I merely just Greek dark ages as an example. During the time of the United Monarchy other empires and countries suffered. Egypt was suffering around that time too. Just look at [[1]] Egypt in a way feel and didn’t reunite until 945 BC. So it’s not like the ancient Egyptian would care what the Israelites around that time were doing, the ancient Egyptians were busing fixing their empire.CycoMa (talk) 05:57, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But anyway I don’t know much about Israelite of Judah history. But, I’m gonna try and research and see what I can do.CycoMa (talk) 06:04, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think this video gives a interesting view on the topic and may give insight. [[2]].CycoMa (talk) 06:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not saying this YouTube video should be used as a source by the way. However, I do believe the sources the guys uses may be helpful.CycoMa (talk) 06:25, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tgeorgescu polity means A polity is an identifiable political entity—any group of people who have a collective identity, who are organized by some form of institutionalized social relations, and have a capacity to mobilize resources.
So the United Monarchy may have been a confederation ruled under a single head monarchy like ancient Japan.
Like the Bible mentions a lot about twelve tribes of Israel or ancient Israel having various tribes.
I can’t confirm this because I haven’t found any sources on this yet.CycoMa (talk) 19:18, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Which is highly plausible, considering that reliable sources pointing to the existence of a United Monarchy are largely non-existent; at this point it is rather a minority view. Newimpartial (talk) 19:42, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Newimpartial hey thanks for ignoring the information we have presented in this discussion. Also I suggest you read Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy).CycoMa (talk) 19:59, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but there is a lot of POV silliness in that other article, and Wikipedia is not a reliable source. The current version of the present article does not imply a large United Monarchy with borders similar to the ones Karma has cited, and when I ask them for quotations or precise citations to support their view, I get nothing (the one quotation they offered did not in fact support the territorial claims they had made). I have read many of the available sources on this topic, and the best evidence I've seen in support of the United Monarchy amounts to, "you can't prove it didn't exist." Which doesn't make its existence a mainstream, well-supported hypothesis. Newimpartial (talk) 20:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, there is no empirical evidence that David ruled over Shfela, just stories from the Bible. If an archaeologist does find such evidence, they directly get the Dan David Prize. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me for failing to provide a quotation @Newimpartial:, but I had an exam at my University these days and I was quite occupied. I will provide the quotes you need; until then, I won't edit the page.-Karma1998 (talk) 10:36, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Newimpartial: In his forthcoming summative book, called Beyond the Texts, the Syro-Palestinian archaeologist William G. Dever summarizes what is presently known about ancient Israel and Judah based primarily on the artifacts—the material culture that includes textual sources. One example is Dever’s portrait of the historical King David. He offers the following seven propositions about David that are inferred from archaeology and also converge with what is attested in biblical texts.

  • “David did exist as a king, the head of at least a nascent 10th-century B.C.E. state (cf. the well-known Tel Dan Stela …).

He founded a dynasty, well known to his neighbors (cf. the Tel Dan Stela and possibly also the Mesha Stela from Transjordan…). [See photos below.]

  • He embellished his capital in Jerusalem (the Stepped Stone Structure and the ‘Citadel’ recently excavated by Eilat Mazar). [For further discussion and photographs of these structures, see my earlier blog post.]
  • His reign saw an expanding population and an increasing urbanism (settlement patterns).

He fortified the borders of the kingdom (Khirbet Qeiyafa as an early-10th-century B.C.E. well-planned barracks-town on the border with Philistia). [See photos below.]

  • He was successful in his wars against the Philistines (comparative stratigraphy of Judahite and Philistine sites, showing the weakening of the latter).
  • His national dynasty and ‘Israelite self-identity’ lasted from the 10th to the early sixth century B.C.E. (continuity of a distinctive material culture).” -

Excerpted from Dever’s recent article in Biblical Archaeology Review (43.3 [2017] p. 47).-Karma1998 (talk) 10:56, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I don't see anything in Dever that supports what you said above, except possibly the border with Philistia at Khirbet Qeiyafa, which is fairly weak sauce. Certainly the last point about Israelite self-identity could only be included in this article with in-text attribution.
We are also talking about a forthcoming book by an 87-year-old scholar, which is not normally the most promising candidate to express the current consensus of scholarship. Newimpartial (talk) 11:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial: Is that a joke? Dever is a leading archaeologist, who's been active for more then 40 years and is widely regarded as the greatest archaeologist of North America. The fact that he's old is irrelevant: Finkelstein is 72, should we dismiss him too?-Karma1998 (talk) 12:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
While it is probably true that Finkelstein is also "fighting the last war", I don't think we should elide the difference between 87 and 72 any more than the difference between 72 and 57. The fact remains that most scholars become entrenched in their views as they get older, so the consensus (or best exemplars, even) of current scholarship - which is what WP:RS policy directs us towards - are seldom composed by authors over 85 years of age.
Anyway, you did not address my main point, which is that Dever does not provide any extra-scriptural evidence for extended borders of a "United Monarchy" - even his bald assertions (such as "David"'s success in wars with the Philistines - do not go that far, and his evidence that "David" defeated the Philistines amounts once again to "you can't prove it isn't true!". Newimpartial (talk) 12:38, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Text and History: Reassessing the Relationship between the Bible and Archaeological Findings: A Review Essay of Jennie Ebeling, J. Edward Wright, Mark Elliott, and Paul V. M. Flesher eds., The Old Testament in Archaeology and History (Waco: Baylor, 2017), chapter 13 by Baruch Halpern.

"Baruch Halpern writes ch. 13, “The United Monarchy: David between Saul and Solomon.” Halpern summarizes and updates his arguments which focus on an evaluation of the biblical text, rather than a modern critical redaction of it. The presentation is a creative application of archaeology, textual witnesses, and geopolitical theory to the period. He notes that David ruled from Dan to Beersheba, with some domination of Ammon and official ties to other areas. As various times he defeats Arameans and he garrisons Edom. The plain of Philistia retains a culture distinct from Israel at this time. Halpern notes that David’s good relations with Achish of Gath continued after he became king. While Saul’s base was in Benjamin and stretched northward, David appears to move about Benjamin and central Judah, where the archaeology of the period reveals few settlements and thus plenty of room for movement independent of Saul’s control. David’s attacks on nomadic gangs (Amalekites) in the Negev provided a basis for the loyalty of local towns and residences that served him well in his initial rule from Hebron. David’s garrisoning of this area and of Edom to the south and east corresponds to the Negev settlements that Shishak claims to have destroyed c. 925 BC. The disappearance of the Negev settlements after this and the settling of the Judean hills create a world unknown to the accounts of 1 and 2 Samuel. On the basis of the pottery, Halpern dates to David’s time the Stepped Stone Structure and Eilat Mazar’s discovery of a public building in Jerusalem that is larger than what would be expected for a small regional center. Contemporary Qeiyafa (on the Philistine border) was a ring fortress, that is a barracks with parallels to Tell Beit Mirsim and other Judean cities. This large-scale construction gives evidence of central state planning and execution. Davidic period (or earlier) inscriptions from Qeiyafa, Izbet Sartah, and Jerusalem share the same scribal tradition and suggest for Halpern “a state-supported administration” (p. 348). I would agree and, in light of a writing exercise at a small village such as Izbet Sartah, believe that it suggests more widespread reading and writing. The Negev forts also imply the central planning of a larger state. Finally, the Tel Dan inscription demonstrates beyond doubt the presence of a Davidic dynasty in Judah. Its discovery “struck a major blow to the school of minimalists who argued that David was no more historic than King Arthur” (p. 349)."-Karma1998 (talk) 11:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To present anything from Halpern, we would need in-text attribution and an account of his methodology, the creative application of archaeology, textual witnesses, and geopolitical theory to the period - note the key term witnesses, which implies a particularly credulous reading of ancient textual sources - that abandons not only modern critical redaction but indeed any historical-critival assessment of the stories about David in the Tanakh. Anything he opines based on this methodology can only be included as an expression of his opinion. Newimpartial (talk) 11:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial: Well, I can't quote an entire chapter, that's quite long. Also, I think you're greatly misunderstanding Halpern, he's hardly a biblical literalist (he said that proving The Exodus is like proving a unicorn and he described David as a brutal and homicide tyrant). He simply believes that there are historical informations in the Bible.-Karma1998 (talk) 12:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are certainly historical informations in some scriptures written in Hebrew; the relevant question is how to best disentangle the historical from the mythic. As far as I can tell, Halpern simply abandons this task for the "Unified Monarchy period" - if he describes David as a brutal and homicidal tyrant that historically existed as such, then that is far closer to a biblical literalist approach than any scholar ought to have, IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 12:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Newimpartial:I honestly find your point of view incredible: I provide you one scholar (Dever) and you dismiss his view because he's old (ageism), I provide you a younger one and you baselessly accuse him of biblical literalism. The victories of David against the Philistines are not proved by the Bible, but by the fact that Philistine cities in the area show signs of destructions in the 10th century exactly in the areas the Bible deacribes. What are we supposed to do? Not use to the Bible because it's a religious biased text? Well, in this case we should throw away most of the texts of the Levant, since they're all pretty biased and religious. Should I quote other scholars? Amihai Mazar is young enough for you? Avraham Faust is OK? Yosef Garfinkel? André Lemaire is good? Are they all religious extremists? Are they old senile fools?-Karma1998 (talk) 13:11, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Listen, it's clear that we're going nowhere here: let's just write in the article that there's a debate and present both sides and that's it.-Karma1998 (talk) 13:21, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am trying to WP:AGF here, but you are going to have to follow a bit more closely what I actually say rather than what you wish (or fear) me to have said. WP:RS policy on recent, reliable sources is not "ageist", it is a policy-based preference for current rather than older scholarship. When people publish the same story for decades, at some point it ceases to he current scholarship even if they find new publishers - that isn't ageism, nor was that the basis for my detailed dismissal of your Dever-based claims. And I did not say that Halpern is a biblical literalist, either: I said that his reading it biblical David as being simply an historical figure is not supported by evidence or critical scholarship. Not the same thing.
How can I put this simply? The destruction of Philistine cities is not evidence of victories of David against the Philistines - hell, it isn't even evidence of victories of Israelites against the Philistines. Your argument that {tq|the victories of David against the Philistines}} have been proved simply shows that your standards of evidence in this area are not to be trusted, regardless of how far Dever, for example, might be willing to walk with you down that road.
It is precisely what you referred to in your paraphrase of Halpern as modern critical redaction (as opposed to his creative application of evidence of all kinds) that allows scholars to use the ancient Hebrew texts as historical sources, but Halpern (and you, by extension) refuse to do this because you don't like where it would lead you. I would never throw away those texts as sources, but for scholarly purposes they must be used critically - your belief that archeology has proved that David conquered the Philistines, so the United Monarchy is a historical reality, shows a degree of credulity that simply cannot be reflected in this article based on the currently-available sourcing. Newimpartial (talk) 13:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Newimpartial: Saying the same things for years is called "coherence"; and it's incredible that you're trying to dismiss the opinions of the leading archaeologist of North America (whose books are currently used in universities) with such ridiculous arguments. But I see that this debate is futile: whatever source I provide will be dismissed. Even if I brought a photo of David himself (I'm ironic, of course), you'd still reject my arguments for whatever reason. So let's just write that there's a debate on the issue (can we say that there's a debate? Or should we measured the debate by the age of the participants?) and let's end this.-Karma1998 (talk) 13:53, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Of course there is a debate, and the debate should be reflected both in this article and in the (currently rather credulous) Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) article. Let's fix them both.
Also, if the photo of David himself turned out to be a nude, I would be very much interested. Even more so, a video of David and Jonathan. Newimpartial (talk) 13:59, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial: since I'm gay, I agree on the last one :-D -Karma1998 (talk)

P.S. @Tgeorgescu: the Bible is often unreliable, that's true. But so is Herodotus. Should we stop using Herodotus as a source?-Karma1998 (talk)

@Newimpartial: I've just checked the Solomon page. I think that's a good example of an equilibrated page.-Karma1998 (talk) 14:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed that Solomon#Historicity does a good job of balancing different perspectives. Newimpartial (talk) 14:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial: BTW, I agree with the "middle way" view: I performed believe that there were kings called Saul, David and Solomon and that they probably reigned over current Israel (except the south, which was under the control of the Philistines). But the Bible's accounts are definitely larger-than-life and legendary.-Karma1998 (talk)
Ok, here is a recent video from Robert R. Cargill, https://clas.uiowa.edu/religion/people/robert-r-cargill who also is User:XKV8R: The Tel Dan Inscription - Extended Version with Jehu's Rebellion on YouTube. He states there is circumstantial evidence for David, so the scholarly consensus is that David existed. It is not a consensus that he was a king or a bandit leader, just that he was a historical person. He also states there is no direct archaeological evidence for either David or Solomon. So, if Newimpartial claims that David was not a historical person, they are fighting against the scholarly consensus. About the United Monarchy: Israeli archaeologists drill plausible scenarios which claim that it existed, but again, there is zero direct archaeological evidence that it did. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Tgeorgescu: Cargill doesn't represent the current scholarly consensus about David (if there is a consensus).He is a minor scholar who often endorsed fringe academic positions, like stating that the references to Jesus in Josephus and Tacitus are later forgeries, while the overwhelming consensus of scholars is that they are authentic (Ehrman also believes they are authentic). He even went so far to quote Richard Carrier to support his claims, which pretty puts him in the "fringe status". And the fact that he was briefly editor of BAR doesn't make him the consensus, otherwise the same could have been said for Hershel Shanks.--Karma1998 (talk) 16:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For the record. I am questioning the historicity of "King David who defeated the Philistines". I see no evidence that the "House of David" in archaeology is based on "the same person" as that biblical narrative. The same legend, maybe, and circumstantial evidence for David, whether king or bandit leader, is pretty weak sauce from a scholar.
But anyway, my own speculations are irrelevant to this article. What I have said is that Wikipedia cannot present the "United Monarchy" as factual, outside of Hebrew textual traditions and the opinion of certain scholars. This article should not be altered to present that view in wikivoice, and the Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) should not do so either, since there is no consensus about the "united monarchy" in recent RS. Newimpartial (talk) 21:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Newimpartial: I don't really care about Cargill (he's a minor scholar whose views are pretty irrelevant), but I agree with you that there's no consensus about the UM and both sides of the debate are supported by major scholars. Therefore, we should simply state that there's a debate, like the page Solomon does.--Karma1998 (talk) 16:43, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Newimpartial: I must say, it's very difficult to understand the debate on the United Monarchy. To understand it, someone should have knowledge on matters such as C14, archaeological Chronologies and other things we honestly lack (I'm a law student).-Karma1998 (talk) 09:27, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Tgeorgescu:, @CycoMa:, @Newimpartial: I've found another quote on the matter: "Although most scholars accept the historicity of the united monarchy (although not in the scale and form described in the Bible; see Dever 1996; Na'aman 1996; Fritz 1996, and bibliography there), its existence has been questioned by other scholars (see Whitelam 1996b; see also Grabbe 1997, and bibliography there). The scenario described below suggests that some important changes did take place at the time." from Israel's Ethnogenesis: Settlement, Interaction, Expansion and Resistance of Avraham Faust, pag. 172, 2008 -Karma1998 (talk) 17:01, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my looks like the tables have turned. I guess my suspicion was correct many scholars do think the United Monarchy existed just not in the exact same way the Bible says.CycoMa (talk) 17:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Karma1998 and CycoMa: I take it for granted that most scholars accept the existence of a United Monarchy (whatever that means). But if does not follow that a Davidic-Solomonic Empire ever existed. So, probably they mean something completely different by the words United Monarchy. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:09, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I’m just gonna throw this little common sense detail out there. Countries are obviously man made. I assume when scholars say the United monarchy existed they mean some kind of polity covering all of what is modern day Israel and other near by areas exist. And that the kingdom of Judah and Israel emerged from this United monarchy.CycoMa (talk) 17:13, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion does not matter (same as mine). Selig, Abe (23 February 2010). "'J'lem city wall dates back to King Solomon'". The Jerusalem Post | JPost.com. Retrieved 18 July 2019. There are remains from the 10th century in Jerusalem, he said, but proof of a strong, centralized kingdom at that time remains "tenuous." tgeorgescu (talk) 17:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Cyco, do you have any evidence for that or is it something you're, y'know, just sayin'? Newimpartial (talk)
Lipschits, Oded (2014). "The history of Israel in the biblical period". In Berlin, Adele; Brettler, Marc Zvi (eds.). The Jewish Study Bible (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press. pp. 2107–2119. ISBN 978-0-19-997846-5. As this essay will show, however, the premonarchic period long ago became a literary description of the mythological roots, the early beginnings of the nation and the way to describe the right of Israel on its land. The archeological evidence also does not support the existence of a united monarchy under David and Solomon as described in the Bible, so the rubric of "united monarchy" is best abandoned, although it remains useful for discussing how the Bible views the Israelite past. [...] Although the kingdom of Judah is mentioned in some ancient inscriptions, they never suggest that it was part of a unit comprised of Israel and Judah. There are no extrabiblical indications of a united monarchy called "Israel."
Maeir, Aren M. (2014). "Archeology and the Hebrew Bible". In Berlin, Adele; Brettler, Marc Zvi (eds.). The Jewish Study Bible (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press. p. 2125. ISBN 978-0-19-997846-5. Archeological evidence for the early stages of the monarchy is minimal at best. [...] In any case, the lack of substantive epigraphic materials from this early stage of the Iron Age II (after 1000 BCE), and other extensive archeological evidence, indicate that even if an early united monarchy existed, its level of political and bureaucratic complexity was not as developed as the biblical text suggests. The mention of the "House of David" in the Tel Dan inscription, which dates to the mid/late 9th c. BCE, does not prove the existence of an extensive Davidic kingdom in the early 10th c. BCE, but does indicate a Judean polity during the 9th c. that even then associated its origin with David. [...] Although there is archeological and historical evidence (from extra biblical documents) supporting various events of the monarchical period (esp. the later period) recorded in the Bible, there is little, if any evidence corroborating the biblical depiction of early Israelite or Judean history.
Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 17:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
tgeorgescu thanks for providing all that but, you accidentally cited the same book.CycoMa (talk) 17:26, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have cited two reputable Israeli scholars, and their work was checked by two reputable editors. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Buddy check your links, they both lead to the same source. It’s hard tell where you got your information from.CycoMa (talk) 17:33, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So, yeah, I have cited from the same book. Why would that be accidental? tgeorgescu (talk) 17:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake, they are from the same book just different parts in the book.CycoMa (talk) 17:36, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, I have the book as EPUB, so page numbers are approximate. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I yeah forgot to mention this but at [this discussion] the source cited there says on [page 462] (although the version has no page numbers) it says The historicity of the United Monarchy is currently debated. The majority of scholars accept the existence of a polity that was ruled by David and Solomon, although on a more modest scale than described in the Bible. The exact boundaries, however, are debated. A few scholars view this polity as ruling only small parts sections of the central highlands, but most scholars view it as a larger polity that ruled some large parts of Cisjordan and probably even parts of Transjordan. Here are links to Transjordan (region) and West Bank. Just throwing this out there to make sure no one missed anything.CycoMa (talk) 17:57, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, that doesn't support

some kind of polity covering all of what is modern day Israel and other near by areas, which was your claim. Newimpartial (talk) 18:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Paleo Spelling

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@Zhomron Is there an attested Paleo spelling? I don't know of one so I'd sooner just remove the whole thing. I also imagine it wouldn't have a waw but not our job. GordonGlottal (talk) 04:16, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Few and far between, but yes. King Ahaz's seal and the King Hezekiah bulla, for instance. Zhomron (talk) 11:54, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I was aware of the first (in general terms) but not the second. Looking at the Hezekiah bulla, I can only see a yod and a he and then a (?) which could certainly be a dalet, but I see that others have reconstructed it that way based probably on the Ahaz bulla. I wish I could be sure the Ahaz bulla was real -- it really looks way too convenient. Anyway thanks, I'm satisfied. GordonGlottal (talk) 18:24, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Widely

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Under the Religion tab, follows this sentence:

"It is now widely agreed among academic scholars that the Books of Kings are not an accurate portrayal of religious attitudes in Judah or Israel of the time."

To portray this sentence as something that's "widely agreed" there needs to be more than two references or two references where scholars are mentioned to be widely agreeing. "Widely agreeing brings to mind a large majority; something irrevocably decided by most. "It came to me in a dream" seems like a more plausible defense for this quote's portrayal.

It also seems dodgy to not include this statement found in one of the references, "...even though the majority of the text is accepted to be historically trustworthy".

Are half-truths considered unbiased, unemotional information as Wikipedia claims, or at least is supposed to? SeleneMarie (talk) 01:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SeleneMarie: We have WP:RULES for writing articles, in this case WP:RS/AC. And WP:UNDUE. And WP:GEVAL. And WP:FRINGE. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:08, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dating

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With talking about a biblical kingdom why can’t BC be used instead of BCE? 2600:6C5E:4000:3F5C:1581:D9E2:EF41:FDBC (talk) 11:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because Anno Domini is insulting to Jews. Dimadick (talk) 15:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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